Kieran Findlay (00:10)

Hello and welcome to the Scottish Housing News podcast. I’m Kieran Findlay, the editor of Scottish Housing News and I’m joined by former Dundee housing convener, Jimmy Black.

We’re into April now, which means the Scottish Government’s New Build Heat Standard is now in force to ban the installation of direct emission systems for heating new build homes and other buildings in Scotland.

Jimmy Black (00:30)

Effectively, this means any new build applying for a building warrant will not be able to use polluting heating systems like oil and gas boilers and instead be powered by alternatives like heat pumps and heat networks. But as ever, such a change brings its own questions. How do these clean heating systems operate? And is the industry prepared to meet the huge demand for skills that is coming its way?

Kieran Findlay (00:54)

We’ve gathered a guest who is delivering a project on a very large scale to find out the challenges and the potential benefits involved.

Owen Maguire is the director of heat networks Scotland at Vattenfall Heat UK, a company that has formed a joint venture with Midlothian Council to deliver low carbon heating to around 3,000 homes, education and retail properties at the new town of Shawfair.

Owen, welcome to the podcast. What’s going down at Shawfair? What is Vattenfall doing with Midlothian Council?

Eoghan Maguire (01:28)

Good afternoon and thank you for having me on. Yeah, so I’m Owen Maguire. I work for Vattenfall. We’re a Swedish utility. Predominantly actually is one of the largest operators of heat networks across Europe. We have 2.2 million customers on our heat networks at the moment. And we’ve come to Scotland looking to try and sort of leverage what is a need as you touched on the ban for gas has just come into effect. So we’re looking at trying to deliver low carbon heat solutions in Scotland.

One of the things we’ve managed to set up is a joint venture with Midlothian Council. So it’s to the south east of Edinburgh, which is looking to capitalise and use the heat which has been generated by the energy from waste plant at Millerhill and distribute that to the local region. The first development of which is Shawfair, but actually we’ve just managed to work with Cala Homes on their development at Newton and Wellington Farm as well. So that’s 620 homes.

So actually currently we’re looking at 3,620 homes at the moment. And we’re engaged with other plot developers in the region as well as existing heat demand to ensure we can use that low carbon heat as far and as wide as possible in that area. So the joint venture has a 50-50 joint venture between ourselves and Midlothian Council. And the reason, remit there is looking at the deployment of low carbon energy infrastructure across the region. So while district heating is definitely the first thing we’re looking at, we are also exploring other avenues such as solar PV, private wire, e-vehicles, et cetera.

Kieran Findlay (03:10)

How big could this be? You’ve already talked about extending it and inviting more housebuilders. How many properties could this network adequately power?

Eoghan Maguire (03:20)

So its - district heat networks are relatively organic creatures. They grow and they can grow quite big. What we look at is where we’ve experience of doing something similar on the continent. And the city of Amsterdam is a very good example of where we’d start off with a relatively small heat network that has grown significantly. So over the past 20 years, that heat network started off in one area of the city. Again, actually, it was based on the waste heat from an energy from waste plant and it currently has grown to serve about 145 150,000 homes across the region and for comparison maybe 880,000 inhabitants in Amsterdam. And so in the Midlothian energy project, while we’re initially serving Shawfair and Cala Homes, Newton and Wellington Farm development, we have the potential to hit maybe 10, 12, 15,000 homes before we start looking to try and get more waste heat.

But the beauty of heat networks is they’re pretty technology agnostic and not only that, but the sources of heat can grow as well as the heat demand. So as you bring more heat demand on the network, you can actually add other sources of waste heat onto your heat network. And really all we’re doing is moving waste heat around the region.

So where we see other examples of different forms of generation on the heat network, so you can look to Uppsala in Sweden, where we take waste heat from biomass plants, from energy from waste plants, but we also take heat waste heat from coffee roasting facilities, from data centres. And so in short, there’s no limited size as to how big this network can grow.

But what you want to try and do is balance that level of waste heat and demand as much as you can. So in essence, they are relatively geographically specific. And what I’d like to be able to try and do is look to be able to explore other areas where you see waste heat in the south east Edinburgh region for this one, which is obviously going to be predominantly delivered by the energy from waste plant. But we’re looking at things such as wastewater from the mines, the energy centre that we’ve just constructed at Millerhill was difficult in terms of the ground conditions. I’m not going to say the ground was made like Swiss cheese, but we certainly had a lot of grouting to do for filling of mine shafts. But actually, where you see that as an advantage is there’s a significant amount of waste heat trapped in those mines that we could potentially integrate into our heat networks as well.

So in answer to your question, Kieran, we’ve plans to go to maybe 15, 20,000 homes in that region, or home equivalents. But the scale is not necessarily limited just by that. It would be more organic. And as they grow, heat networks can link up together. And so as you’ve seen in Amsterdam, we’ve had two or three different heat networks, which started out individually, now linking up and acting as one big heat network.

Jimmy Black (06:34)

Can I ask you, we’re sitting in Dundee, which is one of the places where we had heat networks long ago, back in the 1920s in Dundee council housing. We had the Logie scheme, we had Stirling Park. It was like a big boiler, a fire in a big boiler and send some water around some pipes. Now, that was great at the time. I think a lot of heat was lost through the streets as the water, hot water passed and eventually it was discontinued. But heat networks don’t necessarily send very hot water around anymore, do they? The new ones seem to look at sending cold water around, but somehow or other turning that into heat in people’s houses. So how - are you still doing it the same way as we did it in Dundee in 1920?

Eoghan Maguire (07:20)

No, in one instance, but heat networks back when they were used back in the 1920s, the temperature of the waste heat was significantly higher and there was no real need to be economic with that waste heat. So what you’d have is you’d have coal fired CHP plants with emitting at huge temperatures. And so you could quite easily take out your pressurized water at 120 degrees, 90 degrees, et cetera. But as we move more and more towards electrification of heat, what we look to try and do is be more astute in how we design our systems. Because in reality, even if you look at a gas boiler, it’s pretty crazy to burn gas to 1200 degrees, to heat water to 90, to heat your room to 20 degrees. And so what we’re looking at now is lower temperature heat networks.

So the one at Millerhill is designed at around 60 degrees. So what that means is that we can integrate other sources of waste heat more economically. So in particular, as you move towards heat pumps, heat pumps work most efficiently when the delta or the step up from the waste heat source to the required temperature isn’t that large. So with a small delta going from air potentially at say 5 degrees to 60 degrees isn’t that big a jump but if we had the heat at 90 degrees you’d lose out on some efficiencies as well. So we’ve designed a future-proof low-temperature heat network at Millerhill. So it’s slightly different to what was done in Dundee but the principles are very very similar. We’re moving hot water from one place to the other but just trying to be more efficient and economical with that temperature difference.

Kieran Findlay(09:12)

At what stage did the council, Midlothian Council, get involved in the Shawfair project? Was a heat network always considered? Was that the plan from the outset?

Eoghan Maguire (09:24)

Yeah, and so I’m speaking on behalf of my joint venture partners at the council that they were seminal in trying to sort of get and set up the energy from waste plant, which is located at Millerhill. And that’s also actually a joint project with the City of Edinburgh Council. So it’s not rocket science in looking at that, the energy from waste plant whereby you’re taking refuse waste, bringing it into an energy recovery facility and getting electricity out of this. And what you end up having is a significant amount of waste heat. And currently, that waste heat is going up the chimney, literally for the birds. And so Midlothian Council went, that doesn’t really make sense, especially when we’re trying to develop a new town of Shawfair, other developments like Cala’s Newton and Wellington Farm et cetera. Let’s see how we can make best use of that.

And in reflection, the council came to the market looking for a joint venture energy partner. So not necessarily just for someone to deploy heat networks. They weren’t able to define the problem specifically, but what they did is they saw the problem and an opportunity and they brought us on board to try and figure out what the best solution was. And so that’s the first project we’re working on with them is the deployment of that district heat network.

Jimmy Black (10:47)

In European countries, I imagine the need for a cooling network is greater, but climate change is progressing and we had some pretty high temperatures in Scotland last year. We do get a lot of sun and insulating houses and putting in, you know, triple-glazed windows and doing all the things that we’re trying to do now. People are going to actually become too hot in their homes at times in the summer. Will the new heat network in Shawfair be able to cope with cooling as well or is that something for the future?

Eoghan Maguire (11:19)

So the heat network and the requirement for cooling for residential homes isn’t as stark. So that won’t be something we’ll be looking at for Shawfair. However, what we will be looking at trying to do is looking where there are cooling demands. For example, the hospital, the Royal Infirmary, which is very close by or other office blocks that do have that cooling requirement. One man’s cool is another man’s heating. So what we can do?

Back to the point I alluded to earlier on is we can integrate that waste heat source into the heat network and actually provide that what is cooling and rejects heat, that rejected heat can then be put onto our heat network and transferred around. Now heat networks can be used as cooling. So in larger city dwellings, again, our office blocks in particular, there’s more and a growing need for cooling to take hold. And you can have either a district cooling network, or you can start looking at things which are more referred to as ambient temperature loops, which is looking at both, basically combining heating and cooling on the same network.

Kieran (12:27)

What’s the experience like for the end user, the householder? For those of us who are used to gas boilers, is the system easy to control, similar to control?

Eoghan Maguire (12:39)

Yeah, no, listen, it comes back to, and this is the key success factor of this is the end user shouldn’t notice any difference. Like all the end residents, all they want is, listen, the beer to be cold, shower to be warm, wifi to be on. It’s a pretty low involvement commodity and they shouldn’t notice any difference whatsoever. What they’ll be in the house will be a heat interface unit. So a H-I-U and what that is is a small plate heat exchanger, but the customer will be able to control their heat, the temperature, they will set when they want heat and it’ll be tariffed via a metering solution as well. So, in reality, when you look at things like the temperature of the network, again, people won’t notice any difference in comfort. The big thing that they will notice is a level of service improvement because when you have district heating, what you have is it’s more of a heat provision as a service.

So we will be responsible for that HIU. If there won’t be any need to service boilers, if it breaks down, et cetera, that will all be our responsibility to ensure we provide heating. Rather than historic, I think that people don’t necessarily always consider this, but they’re buying a pretty raw commodity in gas. It’s a pretty explosive volatile fuel to take into your house to burn and boil an egg. It’s not necessarily the smartest or safest way to do things. So we’re moving away from that.

Kieran Findlay (14:06)

So yeah, there’s nothing combustible in the house, in the corner of the house anyway, there’s nothing like that.

Eoghan Maguire (14:12)

There’s nothing combustible. Like I said, we’re not taking an explosive fossil fuel into our house to boil an egg. It’s a service. And that is a step change in terms of the customer will certainly and should witness a better quality service and not have to worry about gas boilers breaking down, et cetera.

Kieran Findlay (14:27)

So it can cope with the demands of peak eating times, peak cooking times?

Eoghan Maguire (14:34)

Absolutely, so all that requirements of showers, et cetera, will all be designed and the end user won’t notice any meaningful difference to how they live their lives.

Jimmy Black (14:44)

Now, I have a pal who lives out in the country, across the bridge that was a mains water supply, it cost him thousands to get that mains water supply put in a pipe through the ground and over a bridge. You’re putting in miles and miles and miles of underground pipes. Surely that’s going to be a major capital expenditure. Surely that’s going to come through into the bills of the people who are using the heat.

Eoghan Maguire (15:08)

There’s no two ways about it. It’s a large capital expense. And what we look to try and do is socialise that across a large numbers of developments. So we aren’t building a district network for single individual homes. What we look to try and do, and this is where heat networks are the right solution in certain areas and not necessarily for all areas. So what you end up looking at doing is you try and be quite geographically specific. So where you have an area of heat demand, which is a certain level of density, what you can do is heat networks can be the best solution economically for the end user.

But if you have a rural situation whereby houses are spread out and you do have to ask or deploy a huge amount of capital for one, it’s a very small load, heat networks aren’t the best solution for that. But where you see large-scale new development, as well as actually looking at decarbonising large-scale heat loads, it definitely is the best and most economic solution.

Kieran Findlay (16:00)

When it’s all up and running, I know it could yet expand, so this question may change or the answer may change, but how much of a positive environmental impact do you hope the network is going to have?

Eoghan Maguire (16:17)

Well, immediately when you look at say, even what you’re comparing it against, if you look at say a comparison against gas boilers, so almost immediately in terms of carbon content, what you have is you go from 220 grams of CO2 per kilowatt hour down to nearly zero, because what we’re taking is predominantly waste heat from the chimney stack.

The other benefits would be in terms of where you’d be removing any sort of particulates. So gas boilers will be removed from individual houses. So there won’t be any impact on that. But the real drive for this is looking at where Scotland has managed to address the electricity demands pretty well in terms of renewable energy. But what we haven’t managed to do is address how we deal with heating. And this is one of the quickest and easiest ways to try and do that and ensure we actually can deliver a low carbon heating requirement for the Scottish Government.

Jimmy Black (17:16)

Now, Shawfair is a completely new town. So the streets are being laid for the first time. People will know exactly where the utilities are. The roads won’t be digging up the gas, and the gas won’t be digging up the electric, and the electric won’t be digging up whatever else is in the ground. So it’s going to be a lot easier for you to do that in Shawfair. So a massive undertaking. But nonetheless, not so many things lurking in the ground to jump out and surprise you.

When you start working your way into Edinburgh, an ancient city, ancient pipes and ancient sewers and tenements and…

Kieran Findlay (17:54)

trams!

Jimmy Black (17:56)

particularly trams, you know, it’s a bit more challenging. How feasible is it to actually work your way into a very traditional medieval city?

Eoghan Maguire (18:08)

The first thing I’d point to would be what we’re doing today currently in Bristol. Now, while it might not have as medieval a history as Edinburgh, we are in the city centre looking and growing through the network and we are managing utilities construction. We are looking at roads. It is a large-scale utility undertaking and that is something that we are doing in Bristol. When you look at say back to the comparison to medieval and heritage, Amsterdam also draws a very, very good comparison as to how it’s done. And in reality, we did the easier stuff first, the new build, the large developments on the outside. But over time, we’ve now started to grow sort of like this angiogenesis of like the routes are starting to go into the city, over the canals, linking up the, the, the polders and the islands that they have. So we’re now starting to take on the, it is the harder stuff in terms of, of how you can try and do that.

But in short, we’d like to try and start with easier stuff where we can. And that easier stuff is the new build where we know where the utilities are. We know we can deal with those types of buildings. But then the ambition is to grow, to be able to connect into older tenements, older buildings as well.

Jimmy Black (19:23)

One of the hardest things to do at all is get people to work together. The Scottish Government want people to be on heat networks where heat networks are available. It’s also the case that people want to set up smaller-scale heat networks which you mentioned might not be all that viable. But in terms of not making people work together, encouraging them to work together, is that something that you will find a challenge? I mean, did all the householders in Shawfair, maybe there aren’t any yet, will everyone be happy to sign up to the network? Or will some people still want to have their own supply from another supplier?

Eoghan Maguire (20:04)

What you touch on here is hearts and minds. And actually one of the biggest challenges that we have to overcome is that hearts and minds challenge. And for Shawfair, I think it’s going to be relatively easy. It’s new homes, new buildings, and people aren’t going to really notice a difference. But when we go street by street in terms of how we can actually sort of look to try and decarbonise other individual homes, you’ve got a combination of different house archetypes, different perspectives, different preferences, it is going to be a big challenge. And it’s what we’d like to be able to show people is that this is a better service compared to what they’re trying to do and try and bring people on that journey specifically.

But that is the, technically heat networks aren’t really difficult. It is just large-scale plumbing. But in terms of in the same breadth, actually to be able to provide that solution to existing home builders, existing homeowners, it’s actually quite more difficult in terms of a lot more complex. And the problem is more around those hearts and minds, which is definitely a challenge we’re going to need to try and overcome. It’s something we’re going to have to work with communities, with local stakeholders. It’s not something that we think we can power or steamroll through at all. And so I think a wider cooperation and working with communities in particular is going to be very, very important.

Jimmy Black (21:28)

The Scottish Government seem to want to place an obligation on people to join the heat network if there’s one available. What does the industry think about that? Is that going to work?

Eoghan Maguire (21:37)

So I guess there’s varying degrees of obligations and who should be obliged to apply. I think the Scottish Government are trying to push the likes of the larger local authority or local area controlled buildings, schools, hospitals and those, where you get that obligation to connect. The reason why I am hugely in favour of that is it allows for that investability. Because what we touched on earlier on is this is a large-scale, nationally important strategic infrastructure. What you need to try to do that is you need to have that investment that needs to be de-risked. And the way that that can be de-risked is that if you know that, for example, schools, hospitals, libraries, et cetera, will connect, you can then make that long-term investment over a 40 or 50-year horizon, knowing that you’re going to have that connection. And the obligations on a street by street, I think we’re a long way away from that happening at all. And I think that’s something which I think I would like not to be an obligation to connect, but one of a consultative style approach, ensuring people actually see the benefits of that. But where we do see the benefits of the obligation to connect, it means that we can actually deploy that infrastructure at a lower cost and mean that actually we get the better solution for all people involved.

Jimmy Black (22:58)

The man who comes to mend my gas cooker when it goes wrong, as it does from time to time, is not going to become any kind of other heating engineer. He says he’s not going to retrain, he’s going to retire. It’s all too much. It’s all new. He doesn’t really believe in it either. And he’s a very good gas engineer, but he’s sceptical about the future. It’s not for him. Who has the skills?

Hand in hand with a big development like you’re doing, are you training people up through community benefits? Are you confident that the workforce is there to do the stuff that you’re trying to do?

Eoghan Maguire (23:39)

In short, no, at the moment, the supply chain is definitely going to be an issue that we are going to come across. Now, I see that as being almost an opportunity. It’s not too often you get to try and deploy, as I say, nationally important strategic infrastructure across a region. And this is an opportunity in terms of local supply chain, both in terms of construction, in terms of delivery of the assets, operations, maintenance, servicing. It’s a, and it’s not going to happen overnight.

So this is not going to be doing your gas engineer out of a job at all. But what it does do, it gives an opportunity for younger people coming through to be able to learn about the welding skills in terms of welding for district heat pipes, in terms of servicing of the HIUs. There’s a huge step change in how we can try and ultimately deploy that level of capital, which is really exciting because a lot of the jobs for deployment of heat networks, they are local. Listen you can’t export people digging holes you can’t export, you can’t import sorry, people for digging holes you can’t import the likes of welders it’s a I think in terms of GVA so as an economic marker it’s a huge opportunity for Scotland inc to be able to capitalise on a new sector and a new industry. 

And so I’d hope that those new people coming up to schools would see that as an opportunity and look to train in those areas as well. And back to how we’re engaging, we’re most certainly engaging on those supply chain, but with our suppliers and hands-on ourselves in terms of schools. So we’ve got a couple of exciting programs ongoing with Edinburgh Science and Powering Futures, but also in terms of the supply chain of how we can get people either to retrain or actually indeed start training from the get-go as well as district heating engineers.

Kieran Findlay (25:33)

In terms of these initial upfront very large capital costs, who’s paying for that in Vattenfall’s case? Are there other potential investors or does it have to be big companies or is there scope for community ownership?

Eoghan Maguire (25:49)

So currently for the Shawfair projects, there are three key investors. That’s Vattenfall, Midlothian and the Scottish Government have given us a £7.3 million grant under what was previously the LCITP grant funding. The future investments we foresee will be based on predominantly just Vattenfall and Midlothian Council via the Midlothian Energy that will make those investments.

The scope for change of co-investment, of community investment is definitely there as with any asset. And it’s just trying to get the right time for when that investment can happen, when it’s obviously post or de-risked in terms of the construction capital, or then you can get maybe potentially sort of different types of ownership structures on the back end. But currently, the view is Vattenfall and Midlothian Energy, for example, would like to look at that asset in perpetuity and manage that as a utility.

Kieran Findlay (26:44)

We’ve had some conversations on this podcast in the past about fabric first and whether that’s the right way to go for retrofitting. And I know the new build standard is what it is. It’s a standard for new builds, but we are going to have to infiltrate clean heating into existing buildings. Is that the thing to look at first? And will the effect of clean heating remove the need for external works?

Eoghan Maguire (27:15)

No, there’s lots of opinions here on this explicit and mine’s a very humble and naive opinion but I do look at basic costs and predominantly for a cost of users as in, yes you should be doing fabric but I think you should also be doing low carbon at the same time. I don’t think we have a huge amount of time to wait around just to do just fabric first approach. I think that there’s a concept looking at your marginal cost of per kilowatt hour. So obviously in terms of either kilowatt hour saved or kilowatt hour of carbon reduced. I think that as you keep on progressing and pursuing increased insulation, there’s only so far you can go before it becomes very, very expensive to try and reduce your heat demand. Where I would look at, say, for example, the opportunity at Shawfair is, it’s low carbon heating in the instant. Let’s use that to try and decarbonise the overall heat demand across the sector. So it does need to go hand in hand. I wouldn’t put one in front of the other. What I would try and do is keep my eye on the overall cost and the overall carbon content as well.

Jimmy Black (28:25)

Would you consider, or maybe you’re going to do this, I don’t know, would you supply electricity as well so that people are getting all of their power from one source?

Eoghan Maguire (28:32)

It’s slightly different in terms of electricity, in short, no, at the moment. It’s a very different sort of regulated style market. And the key things I’d look at for electricity sales are around, it doesn’t necessarily be as geographically specific. So you look at the district heating, it is geographically specific and located. Now, that said and done, you look on the continent, you look at Vattenfall, what they do, they do provide both district heating and electricity to the same customers. So there is a world where that could happen, but in the first instance, it’s not something we’re pursuing actively.

Jimmy Black (29:09)

You could say that if price of electricity were to fall, actually would any of this be necessary? We could just have one bar electric fires or we could have storage heaters and that would be low carbon. In fact some people I think are looking at storage heaters as a zero carbon route for social housing.

Eoghan Maguire (29:26)

You could. Yeah, and I guess why you’re looking at there is direct electric. And so there’s a level of volatility and costs associated with that direct electric. And I would always advocate that if you look, for example, at a heat pump-led heat network, it’s even more efficient to actually put that electricity through a heat pump and as opposed to get one unit of heat out, get three units of heat.

And so the other considerations are that where we start looking at increased electrical demand, that there’s going to be another burden on the electricity network in terms of providing that heat. If you switch your heat demand all the way over instantly to direct electric heat demand, the electric grid won’t be able to service that level of heat demand. It’ll become extremely expensive for developers in terms of service plots and houses. And that’s why I think that heat networks will definitely provide an advantage to developers in terms of reduced electrical capacity needed for the sites. And in short, it will also allow for us to be able to use the electrical grid more efficiently and for other things such as transport needs as well.

Kieran Findlay (30:41)

Final thought from myself Eoghan, many of our listeners will belong to housing associations. Some of them only have dozens if not a few hundred homes and the scale of Shawfair, you’ve got an energy from waste plant on your doorstep, you’ve got the buy in from the local authority, you’ve got finance from the Scottish Government. You’re thinking that’s all fair and well but what can we do and what will we have to do? Does something on a smaller scale, a much smaller scale, pique the interest of local authorities, potential investors and yourself at Vattenfall?

Jimmy Black (31:18)

Let’s say a few hundred homes in a housing scheme.

Eoghan Maguire (31:21)

Yeah, so we are looking at, again, for it specifically is unique in terms of where they are with Millerhill, is we are looking at obviously bringing the heat network to those developments specifically. Now, if we look at that independently without looking at having the assets in the ground already, there are options for that to be done and it would be more likely in terms of heat pumps. So that’s where you have, it could be, it comes back to that density discussion I had earlier on that if you’ve got only a certain level of user density, heat networks, centralised heat networks might not be the best solution. It might be a case of you look at a string of air source, heap and bled energy centres on wet systems. It is case-by-case dependent, but where we are seeing the advantage of heat networks in particular in cities and where there’s dense areas is we can link up those housing associations with larger scale hospitals, libraries, et cetera, as anchor loads. And that the costs then can be socialised across the whole region and across the whole network, which ultimately is to the benefit of end users.

Jimmy Black (32:34)

And you can draw your heat from the sewers, from the mines, from anything you think of. The cold water tap, the sea, it’s all there.

Eoghan Maguire (32:44)

There’s a hierarchy of where you’re trying to move heat. And honestly, that’s the key thing that heat networks do is they’re just more, they’re more efficient with the resources we have. Like the heat’s already there, we’re just moving it. And it’s how you can try and make that work. And yeah, whatever local area you live in, if it’s an EfW, if it’s a mine, if it’s a coffee roasting facility, a data centre, it’s how can we capture that waste, I always wrote this as heat pollution, how can we make sure we don’t just throw that valuable energy resource up into the air, literally for the birds.

Kieran Findlay (33:15)

Okay, Eoghan, thanks for your time. This is a subject I have no doubt that we’ll be returning to more and more. My thanks to Eoghan Maguire from Vattenfall, thanks to Jimmy Black, my co-host. We’ll be back in a couple of weeks where we’ll start a few episodes on the release of the Scottish Government’s Housing Bill. I’m Kieran Findlay, we’ll be back in a couple of weeks.